The Group Dentistry Now Show: The Voice Of The DSO Industry

Ben Hernandez, CEO and Managing Director and Eric Pastan, Director, Management Consulting of the Skytale Group join the Group Dentistry Now Show. In this episode Ben and Eric discuss:

Strategy – maximizing value and getting ready for a potential sale
Choosing an advisor you trust
The sale – process expectations, investors, the landscape
Life post sale – real-life experience from an owner operator

To get in touch with Eric Pastan or Ben Hernandez visit https://skytalegroup.com/get-in-touch/

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Full Transcript:

Bill Neumann:

Welcome everyone to the Group Dentistry Now Show. I’m Bill Neumann, and as always, thanks for listening in or watching us. Whether you’re listening on Apple, Google, or Spotify, we appreciate you. You might be watching us on YouTube. We sure hope you are.

So we’ve got an ambitious goal today. We are trying to take everyone through the strategy side of getting your practice or your group potentially ready for sale or maybe just building it strong to continue to grow on your own. So we’re going to talk strategy, we’re going to talk about the sale process if you choose to go that route. And then we’re also going to talk about, which nobody really talks about. What happens after the sale? What’s life like after the sale? So we figured we had an ambitious goal, so we would invite the Skytale team on to help us cover all these incredible topics in the next 30 to 45 minutes. So we have Ben Hernandez with us. He is the CEO and Managing Director of Skytale, and we have Eric Pastan, who is the Director of Management Consulting at Skytale. So thanks both of you for joining us on the Group Dentistry Now Show.

Ben Hernandez:

Thanks for having us, Bill.

Eric Pastan:

Yeah, great to be here. Appreciate it.

Bill Neumann:

Yeah, this is going to be a lot of fun. Like I said, ambitious goal. I’m sure you can handle it. You’ve had a lot of experience and we’re going to have some fun here. Eric, if you don’t mind, can you start things off a little bit about your background and what your role is at Skytale?

Eric Pastan:

Sure. And I was going to say ambitions and goals is what drive us as a company. So I guess this all weaves in nicely. For myself, yeah, I found my way to Skytale after having owned a DSO with some partners up here in the northeast. And really what we did is we bought our first practice and really went in and tried to understand what the underlying systems, SOPs, everything that went into running a successful office from an operation side, from a business perspective, and really investing in our people and the training so that we felt confident that we could grow in a responsible way. And over the course of the next 13 years, that’s exactly what we did. Our approach happened to be de novo from there and we increased from that single office. We ended up over the next, like I said, 13 years to 43 practices up in New England. We were Massachusetts, Connecticut, New Jersey, New Hampshire, and a little bit of Rhode Island. And we went through the transaction process and eventually sold to a private equity sponsor.

Bill Neumann:

Thanks Eric. So you certainly can talk about your experience with your clients and also with people on the show today. So our listeners. Ben Hernandez, CEO, Managing Director, can you tell us a little bit about your background?

Ben Hernandez:

Certainly. Thanks again, Bill. My background is primarily financial in nature. Out of school, did investment banking for a couple of years. Post MBA, worked at a hedge fund based out of here in Dallas. I think still most of my career has been spent there and then I’m aging myself here a little bit, but it was in 2015 that I moved more into this space. I led a consulting division of a tax accounting consulting firm. It was actually MWA, Mike White’s firm. And led that and just fell in love with doctor founded owned businesses that were wanting to grow, wanting to scale. Basically all the things that Eric ended up doing. Just completely fell in love with that space.

And that’s really the genesis of where Skytale’s idea came from. We were founded in 2018 and we did and still do two things. We do management consulting, which Eric as you mentioned, Bill leads, where we help our clients grow and scale their businesses. And then we also have an investment banking division where we sell businesses to either financial sponsors or strategics. And we really just wanted to found a true investment bank in the lower market space.

Bill Neumann:

So Eric, back to you. So we’re going to start things off with strategy, which is the management consulting side. So tell us what you do for whether it’s practices or dental groups, why would somebody seek you out from a strategy standpoint?

Eric Pastan:

So yeah, I think I’ll start and where we usually start is with the end in mind. And that’s our approach with our clients and really how we like to position ourselves in the marketplace. So what that really means is when we talk to our clients and when we start this conversation is what do you eventually want to be? What do you want to look like? Where do you want to get to? And then we start planning backwards and really building that roadmap from that final destination, which we say is written in pencil because once we typically dig in there, those goals tend to get larger as they start to realize what their true potential is. And I think that’s part of our job too, is to help them realize what their true potential is.

But essentially what we’re doing is that we’re working with our clients to help them understand their business in a way from the outside of our experience, from what we’ve seen by really doing it in the past, by having been and faced with similar, I guess, questions and junctures that we’ve gotten to in our own personal experience. Help apply that to the path they’re on, but really using their KPIs and their financials as a guide along the way. So we are essentially a partner in growth and strategy for our clients in order to realize that eventuality that they want to get to. And a lot of times it’s a sale in mind, a lot of times it’s just simply this is the goal that they want to get to personally. It can really depend.

And so what we do is that we’re just a customized approach and we can apply those goals into the design of the way that we’re going to work together. And then from a practical standpoint, we’re meeting with them with their entire teams to help understand those strategies and how they apply to everyday life. We don’t stop at simply, “These are your numbers.” We’re going to talk to them about this is why your numbers look like they do. And when I say numbers, again, that’s their financial numbers in concert with the individual KPIs that directly lead to success or some of the challenges that they might face really on a daily basis. And so it’s really about understanding those and how we can leverage the ones we’re really good at and how we can come in and support the ones we might find challenging and look to ways that we might even be able to find resources by being a fully realized DSO.

A lot of our clients come in having multiple offices and looking to figure out what those services are that we can offer as support in order to really enable the individual locations to pull those levers that directly lead to better and more success. And so I think when you talk about what we do as Skytale, and I simplify it almost down to the point of we really let business owners sleep at night. We let them understand that we’re always going to be having a very intimate relationship with their business and making sure they’re on that successful path. And so having the experience that I have had, I know that had I had a partner like this, I probably wouldn’t have these bags under my eyes that I still do 20 years later because I would’ve gotten more sleep at night knowing that the decisions that I was making were based on budgets, projections, thought processes beyond what the immediate effect is going to be tomorrow.

Bill Neumann:

Could you talk a little bit about the initial process? So when somebody comes to you for help, whether it’s, “Hey, we think we want to sell, we want to partner with a strategic or we’re looking for an investor or we just think we need help.” How does that process start?

Eric Pastan:

From our perspective, these groups that are out there that are looking to acquire, whether they be a platform or a financial partner are looking for beautiful businesses. They’re looking, especially today for businesses that really understand what they’re doing and the why behind it, that have a clear vision and understanding of what their patients look like, what success looks like within the framework of what they’re doing.

And so it’s really about getting their arms around it, being able to tell their story when it comes to the time that they’re looking for some sort of partnership to come out of this and being able to understand it in a way that’s been planned and carefully calculated. I think gone are the days of buyers that are just looking for profitability for profitability’s sake. It really is now down to leadership, systems, training, things that are going to make the integration of these new practices better and who better to do it than leaders that really understand why they’ve gotten to the point they’ve gotten to today. And so from a Skytale perspective, we’re going to help them understand that we’re going to be walking with them through the entire process so that they’re able to articulate it in a way that a buyer will understand and appreciate.

Bill Neumann:

So you sit with them, you go through their numbers, you take a look at the business and are there certain common issues that you see or … So maybe that’s one question. So what things do you see out there that tend to be issues with multiple customers that you work with? And then I’d say in the last year or so, are there any new issues that have kind of bubbled up, things that maybe you didn’t see when interest rates were lower or it was easier to recruit?

Eric Pastan:

Yeah, I mean I think the issues that we see are commonly bifurcated into the financial realm and the operations realm. It’s about from a financial perspective is where are we spending our money from an expense standpoint? Are we doing it in a responsible way? Budgeting is huge. You go to dental meetings these days, whichever one you’re going to, and you walk around the lobbies where all the vendors are and you can kind of get a pulse of where people are looking today for improvements because those are the vendors that are set up there. And a lot of them today are in that expense category. How do we monitor expenses? How can we stay on top of employee costs? How can we stay on top of cost of goods sold? And so I think those are the areas that we look for to normalize over time to depending on the scalability or the scale of the operation as well as what historically we’ve done.

And then I think where it moves to operations is about how do we articulate that in a way where our people can understand. Do we have the right people in the right place making the right decisions? And how can we look at the vision of what our organization is? Because I think the challenges that our business owners face as they grow is that how can we keep culture the way it is today and multiply over the next five to seven years till they’re ultimately ready to transact and how do we do it in a systematic way?

And so I think those are the two avenues that we’re going down more often than not to make sure that protocols are in place, systems are in place, compliance is in place so that everyone is doing things in a way that’s going to allow leadership and management levels below it if they have it, to be able to understand the data that they’re getting out of the office. And then apply it in a way that’s going to be effective so that we can see growth while delivering information to our teams that are going to allow them to take ownership and grow with the organization.

Bill Neumann:

So I’ll ask both of you this question, maybe we’ll give this one to Ben, but there are a lot of advisors in the space right now. Some may be that had added DSO to their LinkedIn profile not too long ago and are maybe better suited for solo practitioners or there’s always a lot of practice management consultants out there. Now there’s DSO advisors. I have it on my profile as well, but I don’t do what you do. So that being said, how does somebody choose who they work with? Because there’s the management consulting side and then there’s the M&A side and some just do M&A and then some like Skytale, do both. So can we talk a little bit about that? Obviously you’re biased, but how does somebody go through that process?

Ben Hernandez:

Yeah, good question, Bill. I think from our perspective, one thing that we set out to do from the very beginning of the founding of the firm, on the management consulting side, we wanted a firm that we could truly say this is the, let’s call it Boston Consulting Group of the lower market. We truly wanted a firm that could do management consulting. And then you asked the question, what does that truly mean? It means that it’s a firm that can truly drive strategy and has that depth of knowledge to be able to do that. So if you look at the team members that we have, we’re already meeting Eric here and a lot of people already know him. He actually built out a 43 location group. We have another team member, David, who has been CEO for private equity backed DSOs most recently, a 121, location one. And then we have our head of consulting as an example, Annie who actually came from Bain Consulting.

So these are people that have either already done it, proven it out, or led large DSOs or in Annie’s case actually been at one of the largest consulting houses in the world. So I think to us it’s talent. I always think about it before a football game when you have whose offense is better, defense and tangibles coaching, we want to check as many of those boxes as we can. And really not for against competitor’s sakes, we look at it more, our job is to service the client. So can we get the job done and are our clients in a much better position post-work with us? So I think I would look on the consulting side at the bios of all team members and which ones are going to service me the way that I want, if I’m looking for someone to ride along in this journey with me as an owner.

On the M&A side, one of the things that we wanted to do is truly be an investment bank. And what does that mean? So we actually have a broker dealer, which means that from a compliance perspective, our emails are being checked. So when we tell clients our fiduciary responsibility is to you, not only are we saying that. We’re actually proving it with our actions of becoming an investment bank. We’re also fully licensed investment bankers. It means that we’ve taken our SIE, series 79 and 63. What does that mean? If I’m actually looking at someone to sell me, it basically means that just like you went to dental school for example, this is like investment banking school. We’re fully licensed investment bankers. So these are people that have done investment banking throughout their career and have done a lot of deals in multiple spaces.

So I would look really at who are the individuals behind the firm that are going to be stewarding me through whether it’s growing and scaling my business or selling it. And from our perspective, those are the ways that we’ve tried to tackle trying to be best in class, to service our clients as best we can. That being said, Bill, as you touched on, there are also a lot of other good competitors out there and we certainly recognize that, but our job is to simply be the best firm that we can be for the clients who do choose to work with us.

Bill Neumann:

Thanks Ben, I appreciate that. Let’s move on to the sale. So where in a lot of cases leveraging Eric and his team on the management consulting side to really create the best group and from financial standpoint, from the culture standpoint, from all the things that Eric mentioned in order to find some type of partner perhaps or maybe continue on our own. And I think that has a lot to do with what the market looks like. What are people now, whether it’s private equity investors, whether it’s strategics, what are they looking for in a group or a strong, large practice that they’re going to acquire? So what’s the landscape like? What’s the process? Again, this is a deep question. So somebody says, “Yes, I want to sell.” How do we start?

Ben Hernandez:

Yeah, if somebody calls us and says, I want to sell or I want to at least explore a sale, our process is, it’s basically three steps. At the very beginning, our job really before even getting to step one is to make sure that the potential seller is fully educated on what it is that they might be selling, what the valuation might be, beyond the valuation that deal structure, how long are they going to have to stay on? So what we recommend immediately is before even engaging, putting together what’s called a pitch book, and it’s implied in the name, they can call 10 of us to do this. We’re basically pitching them for their business. But what really is advantageous to that is within that pitch book, you have the valuation of the organization, which is driven by a few factors. It’s driven certainly by cashflow or EBITDA. It’s also driven by geographically where are you? How are you ramping? What type of dentistry are you doing? Is it specialty, is it not? Is there Medicaid?

So there are a lot of factors that play into the valuation, but then even beyond that academic example, if it’s a $10 million value that we think it would garner at market, then we need to break down what exactly that means. And maybe it’s 7 million cash at close, 3 million of rollover equity. And what exactly does that mean? We get into some of the deal terms they should expect to see, such as you’ll probably be asked to stay on three to five years. And the reason they don’t want you to go to Bora Bora is because you as the doctor, owner, founder, are still very, very much a key to this business. So these are the things that we talk through early on.

Now if they do engage and say, “Yep, that’s the figure I was thinking and I feel comfortable with everything else that we’re talking about.” At that point in time, the three stages are stage one you can kind of think of as getting the house ready to sell, if you will. So we’re putting together what’s called a data room. We already know what buyers are going to ask. Think of this as tax forms and returns, P&Ls, balance sheets, payroll statements, any founding legal documents of the firm, everything that we know a buyer’s going to ask for, we start preparing. And we put together what’s called a confidential information memorandum, a CIM, which is basically 50, 60 pages of the business, the founder’s trajectory, historical financials as well. It’s basically something that a buyer could read and theoretically place an offer just by reading that. That’s the shooting for the stars, if you will.

And then we put a buyer list together because different sellers want different types of buyers. So our job then is to curate a list based on what our sellers are telling us and put together a, usually it’s about 40 to 60 type buyer list. When we have all of that ready, you move to phase two. And phase two is you send a one pager with an NDA and the buyers who might be interested in it start asking us questions around the CIM we mentioned, around anything they put together in the data room, and put together an IOI. IOI is indication of interest. It’s not an actual offer, but it’s basically outlining this is what we may value the firm for and the ones that are competitive enough make it to a management dinner and a site visit. And this really gives our sellers the opportunity to meet with the buyers, to ask their questions as well. It allows the buyers to see onsite what it is that they might be buying and meet obviously the owners and any other key personnel that our sellers may want to bring.

And then coming out of that, we ask for an LOI, an official offer for the business. Ideally we get a few in hand and that’s where we make our sellers job difficult because the idea is that they’ll have a few really good ones with really good partners and buyers to choose from. And then when you do sign that LOI, you go into what’s called exclusivity. So Bill, the way I would think of this is exclusivity is like you are engaged to be married. They’re the only buyer at that point that we’re allowed to talk to, and it’s about 90 days of additional diligence that the buyer then is in charge of. And usually it’s financial compliance and then legal documents. And then after 90 days we close and celebrate. So that’s a process that we typically take our sellers through.

Bill Neumann:

So a couple questions for you on that, Ben. What is the average length of time it takes to go from the beginning of the M&A process to that LOI?

Ben Hernandez:

Yes, it usually takes about six months to get to the LOI phase, somewhere around five and six months. The first phase that we mentioned usually takes a couple of months, and then the second phase, which is the dinners and the initial questions from the buyers also take another two to three months. So around month five to six, you should have an LOI in hand.

Bill Neumann:

And then from the LOI to the actual sale, what’s that length?

Ben Hernandez:

That’s about 90 days. So the entire process is usually about seven to nine months is what one would expect if they were going through a, it’s called a full auction process, where you’re sending it to a numerous number of buyers.

Bill Neumann:

And what does the market look like now? I mean, it’s different than it was a couple of years ago. So what’s the investor appetite look like? And are expectations from sellers in line with what the investors that are willing to pay?

Ben Hernandez:

Yeah, I mean expectations from sellers are never in line even if things haven’t changed. I think it’s always a tug of war of what the seller wants to sell for and what the buyer wants to buy for. But in all seriousness, I think market multiples and values are currently holding. When I say that though, I don’t mean to sound flippant. We certainly are very aware of a number of things. One, the increased consolidation in our space, that’s in the probably mid 30% depending on who you ask. So we are becoming more and more consolidated, and we do keep an eye on that because if you look at other healthcare sub-sectors or sub-sectors in general, when you get to about 50 to 60% consolidation, that might be a time when you put downward pressure on values and multiples. But for now, that part is still healthy even though we are continuing to consolidate.

The other things we look at from a macro level is obviously the economic environment. Buyers now, they certainly have capital from their limited partners, their LPs, but they also borrow money. So they highly leverage these deals. So if you look at two years ago what interest rates were, even a year ago, it looks very different from interest rates today. So it is more costly now for buyers to obtain capital from credit facilities in the way of debt. Eric touched on it, we are seeing value still hold, but what we are seeing is that buyers are becoming much more stringent and picky on what type of business am I buying? It’s no longer simply buying EBITDA. There’s a lot more diligence that’s been going into our deals lately than maybe two years ago because they’re trying to be very picky as to the businesses that they invest in.

Now, the fortunate advantage that we have in our space is that dentistry grows at a glacial pace, whether we’re in an inflationary environment, recession or not. So we’ve talked about it a lot, I know in this space that we’re recession resistant, not proof, but certainly resistant. And we tend to grow 3, 3.5% a year regardless of what the economy is doing for the most part. So what that means is that we’re in a really nice space because investors still have to put their money in somewhere and things like our space, dentistry is a very, very good option for them because they still have to return capital and returns to their partners. So because of that, we are seeing values hold, but we are seeing investors become a bit more stringent in the diligence process.

Bill Neumann:

That’s good news. It sounds like things are still good, but you have to make sure that you have a business that is well positioned for a buyer where maybe they were less picky a couple of years ago, there were some aggregators out there that were just looking to roll up EBITDA and didn’t necessarily worry so much about what they were buying. So that’s good news, probably on Eric’s side of things keeps him busier because they’re trying to maybe take some groups and practices that maybe aren’t completely centralized or the cultures still needs to be adjusted or maybe the financials need to be looked at a little bit more. Let’s talk about post life sale. So we get through the process, we find the right partner, and now what? What does that look like? And that’s probably one for Eric since he’s experienced it.

Eric Pastan:

Yeah, I mean I think if Ben did his job right, we found a partner that we really like and we have the opportunity to go to management meetings, we have the opportunity to really get to know them. And I think part of that 90 day process is intended to do exactly that, is to understand who it is that you’re partnering with, level set your expectations, be able to ask all the questions that you want about where they think the business is going or about the platform that they’re absorbing you into or about their perspective if they’re a purely financial buyer. And so I think that is an opportunity to really set your goals together and to be able to really hit the ground running once that transaction has taken hold, the papers have been passed, the ink is dry. A lot of it is about, okay, what are the tactics that we can undertake immediately in order to pivot and adjust?

But hopefully we’ve done a good job about reassuring the team that what is about to come is going to feel very similar to what’s already been happening. And so it’s really about alignment and strategy moving forward and working with a partner that can offer some level of help in doing so. That’s the reason that we did this in the first place, is to bring someone in that was going to be able to really turbocharge what we’ve already been doing, giving us access either to some other technologies, partners that they may have within their portfolio or a playbook they’re bringing in from having been in the space prior and really helping us realize that next level of goals that we’ve set for the organization. Alignment, you’ve got to get used to some board meetings, probably some different reporting structures, but at the end of the day, if you have the right partner, your goals are still in line and you’re going to continue to run this business as beautifully as you were before.

Bill Neumann:

I think with a partner like Skytale to really guide people, the opportunity to find the right partner is increased greatly. You look back even 5 years ago, 10 years ago, and there was a lot of just guessing because there weren’t people like Skytale out there that had done that, paved the way, maybe made some mistakes. And as far as, do you feel like the sellers and buyers are more educated nowadays? I mean, is it a more savvy seller now? Are they asking questions maybe that they didn’t ask a couple of years ago?

Ben Hernandez:

We are seeing that. I think the market in general, as it consolidates, your friends talk. People like Eric have experienced it. He talks to his friends. The industry just starts gaining a lot of that knowledge. So they know a lot of the questions to ask for. And then as you mentioned, firms like ours and others are out there also ensuring that we’re on the side of the seller and stewarding them through this and we’re asking the questions for them and with them as well. So I think the market overall is a lot more aware than they were a few years ago as to what exactly goes into a process that there are different buyers for different sellers. So find the right one for you. I mean, we always like to remind our sellers that this is for most of us, the only time we’re going to sell our business one, and therefore it’s a top five decision. And you’re not handing the keys to the house and moving out of the house. You’re actually living with them for three to five years.

So it becomes very, very important to pick the right partner just from who is it you might feel comfortable with? And that’s before really diving into the fact that in most of these deal structures, the buyers are asking you to roll 25, 30% or more equity into their business. So it becomes extremely important, as you touched on Bill with the number of buyers that are out there, how are you going to do your diligence as a seller to ensure that if your academic example we used earlier, if you’re selling a business for 10 million and you’re rolling 3 million into it, how do you ensure as best you can that this asset actually returns something nice to you? And that’s where we call it, if we had a magic wand, we go through a list of buyer by buyer, side by side as best we can, and we talk about the history.

Have they been in business for X number of years? Have they done healthcare? Have they done multi-site healthcare? What have historical returns been? Because we have buyers who can show you. My private equity group has been around for 15 years and we have all of these other portfolio companies that gave a really nice return in healthcare. And then we have other buyers that are getting into healthcare, but were doing maybe HVAC a year ago. So there are different risk profiles to each buyer. So all of these things become so important to educate yourself on because of the dynamic of the deal structure in our space.

Bill Neumann:

So we start to wrap things up here. I wanted to get final thoughts from you, Eric and you Ben, make sure we covered everything. I know it was kind of a crash course, a 101, probably needed a little bit more time, but I think we did pretty well. Final thoughts, Eric?

Eric Pastan:

Yeah, I mean I think at the end of the day as a business owner, it’s all about finding the right partners that you trust both within your business. And if you’re thinking of going outside of your business and bringing someone in that is going to help you grow. So having been through it before, trust your instincts. Stick to what you know and what you’re good at and look for people to come in and help you in the areas that you’ve recognized that you could use some help with.

Bill Neumann:

Ben?

Ben Hernandez:

I think for me today, Bill, and thank you again, but today, Bill, we’ve been talking about the growing and scaling and then the selling. So we’ve been talking about the final stages of your first version of your professional career as a business owner, if you will. So for me, I would say if you’re in the middle of building your business, I would start with the end in mind. So really figure out when is, and what is my exit strategy? What year is it? How big am I? Why am I doing what I’m doing? How am I going to get to these goals and what does that look like? So if it’s year 2029 that you come up with, great.

But I think finding that end in mind and putting some of the things that Eric put in place very, very early on to midway on in your business is going to pay tremendous dividends. Because what you’re doing at that point is you’re taking ownership of your future and your business and you’re really planning it out. And what we find is if you whiteboard these things out, they come true. And it’s not because the whiteboard is a magic whiteboard, it’s because if you put your goals down, if you write them down, there’s empirical data and evidence that you will achieve them. So I think for me it’s start with the end in mind and really start that process as early as you can.

Bill Neumann:

That’s great advice from both of you. All right, Ben, if they want to find out more, how do they get in touch with you?

Ben Hernandez:

Yeah, so our website is skytalegroup.com. S-K-Y-T-A-L-E group.com. My email is ben.hernandez@skytalegroup.com as well.

Bill Neumann:

And Eric, if they need management consulting and they need to speak with you or they want to find out lessons learned from scaling up a group and selling, how do they contact you, Eric?

Eric Pastan:

Yeah, similarly, skytalegroup.com, all of our profiles are there. I would invite you to go and look at all of our backgrounds and I think you’ll find that we really do have a great team in place. It’s part of the reason why I’ve been here and continue to stay here and will forever I think because of who we work with. But myself directly, I’m eric.pastan@skytalegroup.com. I think the next event I’m going to will probably be Yankee, so in my backyard in Boston. So I’m always up for Sam Adams or some lobster or something like that.

Bill Neumann:

That sounds good. Yeah. Well, Group Dentistry Now will be there at the multi-site event at Yankee in the end of January. So look forward to seeing you there if we don’t see you before that. And thank you to Eric Pastan and in Ben Hernandez for taking time out of their day to run us through strategy, choosing an advisor you can trust, and of course the sale process, which can be pretty daunting. And then what happens afterwards. So we’ll make sure we drop the email addresses, skytalegroup.com, the URL in our show notes. So again, thanks to the guests, great conversation today. And thank you to the audience for being a part of the Group Dentistry Now Show. Until next time, I’m Bill Neumann.