The Group Dentistry Now Show: The Voice of the DSO Industry

Group Dentistry Now is the #1 Ranked DSO Podcast

Maria Melone, Managing Director & Craig Castelli, CEO of Caber Hill Advisors bring Dr. Hunter Smith, Co-founder & CEO of GPS Dental and Dr. Jashank Sampat, Founder of Ambler Dental Partners, to discuss their partnership and much more. The panel share their thoughts on:

The process of selling a dental practice
How to look for the right partner
Current market conditions & trends
2025 predictions

To learn more about Caber Hill Advisors visit –https://caberhill.com/
You can contact Craig Castelli at craig@caberhill.com
You can also reach Maria Melone at maria@caberhill.com
To learn more about GPS Dental you can visit https://gps.dental/

You can connect with several of the panelists on Linkedin:
Maria Melone – https://www.linkedin.com/in/mgmcpacva/
Craig Castelli – https://www.linkedin.com/in/craig-castelli-b3565a5/
Dr. Hunter Smith – https://www.linkedin.com/in/hunter-smith-864886145/
or email Dr. Jashank Sampat – drsampat@amblerdentalcare.com

If you like our podcast, please give us a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review on iTunes https://apple.co/2Nejsfa and a Thumbs Up on YouTube.

Choose your favorite listening app below and subscribe today so you don’t miss an episode! Full transcript is also provided below. See all of our podcasts HERE.

‘Selling Your Dental Practice to a Strategic Partner’ DSO Podcast with Caber Hill Advisors, GPS Dental & Ambler Dental Group

Bill Neumann: Welcome everyone to the Group Dentistry Now show. I am Bill Neumann, and as always, we appreciate you tuning in, whether you are listening to us or maybe you’re watching us on YouTube. However you consume this podcast, we really do appreciate your support. And as you are watching this podcast, we are in 2025. So happy new year, everybody. And we’re going to talk about a pretty important topic in the industry. It’s talked about a lot, speculated about a lot, mergers and acquisitions. And we’re really going to take a deep dive. We’ve got a panel here. We have a doc. that had a small group partnered with a DSO founded by a doctor as well. So we have both of those individuals on to talk about that, as well as the advisory firm that worked with the organization. So this is going to be a really great conversation. I don’t think we’ve done this before. So, um, This is going to be great. So anyway, I’d like to introduce to the audience our panel. We have Maria Malone, Managing Director of Caber Hill Advisors. Craig Costelli, Founder and CEO of Caber Hill Advisors. Dr. Hunter Smith, Co-Founder and CEO of GPS. Dental, which is Guided Practice Solutions. And Dr. Tushank Sampat, he is the founder of Ambler Dental Group, and he is now a doctor partner at GPS Dental. That was a lot, but great panel here. Thanks, everybody, for joining. Craig, why don’t we start off with you a little bit about your background, if you don’t mind?

Craig Castelli: Happy to. First and foremost, Bill, thanks for having us here and putting all of this together and happy new year to everybody who’s watching or listening. I’m Craig Estelle, founder and CEO of Caber Hill Advisors. I founded Caber Hill 11 years ago, and our goal at the time and still today was to provide advisory services to founder owners of middle market companies who are looking to transact. Largely with private equity, I’d say about 90% of our clients transact with private equity or their portfolio companies, although not exclusively there. We cover a variety of industries. Healthcare has always been the primary focus of the firm. And within that, the dental industry is our most active space. I have a little bit over 20 years of healthcare M&A experience. I worked in the corporate world for about a decade before leaving and getting into investment banking. So I think we’ll get into a bit more of the firm and some specifics on what we have done and what we do as we go here, but I’ll pause for now.

Bill Neumann: Thanks, Craig. Maria, how about you?

Maria Melone: Sure, also happy to be here with this esteemed group. And, you know, I’ve been in the dental space for over 25 years now. I spent about half of my career on the buy side, and the second half of my career now I’m focused on the sell side, been involved with about 250 transactions in total. And I think what’s, you know, one thing that’s interesting about Caber Hill Advisors is we all have lived inside of an organization. So we have operational experience, which I think allows us to bring a unique perspective as we work with clients, bring them to market, represent them, and tell their stories in their best lights so that we can deliver the best results for their transactions.

Bill Neumann: Thank you, Murray. Dr. Hunter Smith, co-founder and CEO of GPS Dental. It’s good to have you on, Hunter.

Dr. Hunter Smith: Thanks, Bill. Really appreciate it. Um, you know, a little bit, your background for me, general dentist by trade, um, and. Describe ourselves definitely as an accidental DSO. Uh, I currently serve as co-founder and co-CEO of the business along with my partner, Dr. Will Little. And, you know, got into this space, really trying to build an organization that was doctor foremost, um, in our mind and creating the type of partnerships that would resonate with doctors that would provide the type of support that doctor partners. would find valuable and not necessarily just what, what fit into the box for our particular group. Um, so I now very unbiasedly, I’m sure, believe that we’re the best partnership organization in the country.

Bill Neumann: And we, um, we did an article September 18th, where you hit a hundred locations or hundredth office. So you’re beyond that at this point, I guess, um, seem to track quite a bit of activity. You’ve had a busy couple of years, Hunter, haven’t you?

Dr. Hunter Smith: Yeah, we have. I think trajectory wise, you know, we kind of look at it in that way, I guess. I mean, everybody wants to benchmark to the number of supported locations. But really, the thing that I’m more proud of is we have over 100 equity owning partners in our organization. So we have one to one supported ratio with our practices. And this kind of speaks to our mission of being partnership forward. So it’s been a lot of growth, but it’s been with way smarter than me, entrepreneurial doctors, great clinicians, experts in their field, and glad we can provide a platform and an infrastructure for them to continue to grow their own brands and philosophies with our support.

Bill Neumann: And we have one of those doctor partners on, uh, Dushank Sampat. He is the founder of Ambler Dental Group. And coincidentally, um, our offices are probably 20 minutes from, uh, your Ambler location. Uh, so, um, yeah, we’re, we’re based in Hatfield, Pennsylvania, so I’m sure you know where that is.

Dr. Jashank Sampat: Wow. Yes. Well, hey, thanks for having me on board. Same thing. Happy New Year to everybody watching. Great fun fact I learned. I did not know that. So you’re, you’re seeing the snow that I see coming down here. Well, thanks for having me here, guys. Uh, like you were saying, uh, Jashank Sampat, uh, founder of Ambler Dental Group, uh, almost similar to Hunter’s story. I think it was kind of an accidental growth phase that we had in, in the group that we built. And, uh, we’re so happy to, uh, you know, have partnered with GPS and, uh, continue the growth.

Bill Neumann: That’s great. Hey, so Craig and Maria, maybe just, you know, another minute or so on Caber Hill Advisors. You briefly touched on Caber Hill, but I wanted to make sure that we didn’t leave anything on the table. You’ve been in the dental space for a while. Maybe talk a little bit about, you know, why, you know, Caber Hill is a bit different than maybe some other Advisors.

Craig Castelli: Happy to. You don’t have to ask too hard for me to get on my soapbox about us and what we do. So we’re an investment banking firm. We are primarily focused on sell side advisory. Our clients are privately held businesses owned by their founders or closely held by families or small groups of partners who want to transact, bring on a private equity partner or sell to a larger company. We pride ourselves on taking on a very select, small group of clients. We say no to way more opportunities than we say yes to. We take a very hands-on approach. And the result that I am most proud of coming out of that is that we can say, So 11 years after launching the firm that 100% of our clients who have gone to market have received offers at or above the expected valuation, you know, the evaluation that we agreed to with the founders prior to going to market. Not every single deal closes for a variety of reasons. You know, we can only look at COVID in 2020 as a a factor outside of everybody’s control that caused deals to get derailed. But we closed the vast majority of them, 90% plus, and those that don’t usually do further down the line. It’s a testament to the team, looking at the dental space. I’m very happy when Maria joined us a couple years ago. I tell everybody that I dare them to show me somebody who has more experience and expertise advising doctor owners as they’re either building their own DSOs or selling to other DSOs. I think she’s literally seen everything when it comes to dental M&A and she’s really an asset to everybody that she works with. So if you’re watching this and you don’t know Maria, I definitely encourage you to reach out, introduce yourself, get to know her because I guarantee you she’ll be able to help you at some point in your journey.

Bill Neumann: Yeah, absolutely. I can attest to that. I was at an event probably eight or nine years ago, really new to the DSO space anyway, and had the pleasure of sitting in on a session that Maria put together and learned quite a bit. So you’re right there. Hunter, I know you touched on a little bit about GPS being different. You talked about the doctor partners. But, but there are other doctor partnership organizations out there and you still, I mean, there’s the growth that I think you’ve had has been pretty significant where other organizations have been relatively quiet the past couple of years. Yeah. And, you know, discuss it, you know, anything more about him, maybe why that is.

Dr. Hunter Smith: I feel like you’re trying to get me to make fun of other structures, Bill. I’m going to, no, I think honestly it’s, it’s that we, try our very best to look at each individual deal and see what matters for that particular partner and doctor and how we can structure an equity model that will best fit their individual goals. So I still run all M&A for GPS a long time, to an extent, but I’m certainly the head of that process still. And the reason why is I think the most important phone call is that very first one where we had the financial information on the practice. But really, if I can identify alongside the partner what they’re looking for out of a DSO partnership or a DPO partnership, then I feel like we can structure a deal that makes sense for them, structure support that will resonate with them. And then our model itself just was very effective. We were able to raise money during the high interest rate environment. We were able to stay competitive with on our economic side of our business, our financial side of our business in order to continue to raise that money and execute on getting that money in the hands of partner doctors. And because of that, we really weren’t as impacted, I guess, by the greater macro environment in the last call it 24 months as as maybe some others. And so that was nice to see from a competitive advantage, at least.

Bill Neumann: So, Craig, maybe I’ll let you lead this question off. How did you all get to know each other?

Craig Castelli: So, you know, it was this deal between Tishak and Hunter and their organizations, you know, in some ways was several years in the making. I think Tishak and I first met at an industry event in 2018 or 2019. Hunter and I had met at some point right before he did his latest private equity transaction a couple of years ago, bringing on main post partners and joshua finally got to the point where where the time was right so i thought it’d be really interesting to bring everybody together here on this podcast instead of just listening to maria and i talk about how great we are and give anecdotes on on what goes down in a transaction you can hear directly from the participants and you know what you can talk about your some of the Mechanics of how the process unfolded but also yeah there’s a lot of psychology involved which everybody who’s been involved in a you know it is well aware but i think until you go through the process you don’t fully. Appreciate that didn’t and you know just shock you certainly has your interest in story about his. journey, you know, beyond just building his group, but, you know, going through the transaction process and, you know, things that occurred before our involvement and then ultimately what it was like working together and getting the deal across the finish line.

Bill Neumann: That’s great. So Jashan, maybe you could discuss that journey a little bit and what made you decide to sell your practices?

Dr. Jashank Sampat: Absolutely happy to give some insight there Craig He means it when there’s some psychology involved. I’ll tell you that his title should probably be founder CEO and part-time therapist throughout the deals Because he definitely took some late-night calls. Oh, you know that to help ensure the mindset and everything was right, but so we It started back in 2021, we tripled capacity in which we saw a 5x growth in revenue and then an eight times growth in EBITDA. And probably similar with anyone experiencing some sort of growth, we started to get approached pretty regularly and that kind of piqued our interest. from private equity groups. Same time we started growing the family, we had a two-year-old and a newborn at the time, and my wife started sitting me down and saying, hey, where’s the work-life balance and where do we want that to head? We finally got to the point where we were getting approached and the numbers were making sense. So that piqued our interest. We waited a year or two for the growth and the capacity to mature for numbers and everything to make sense for us. And then we finally negotiated actually a deal with a local group and we had it negotiated, ready to go. And then a friend of mine actually introduced me to a well-known transition firm in the DSO market. And they talked with us and said, hey, we’ll help you guys take the ball to the end zone. The deal was already negotiated out. Everything was good to go. Long story short, man, it was a mess they created. They didn’t really know what they were doing. With their help, the deal actually fizzled out about a week before it was supposed to close. And so that was a tough blow, but I kind of take it as a dry run through, which helped. And then a couple months later, we kind of regrouped, gave Craig a call and said, hey, Craig, You know, this is what happened. You know, we’re looking to get this going again. What do you think?” And that’s where his therapy session started from there. Next thing I knew, we gave Craig the green light. We teamed up and we were ready to go back on market pair.

Bill Neumann: So why did you ultimately choose GPS?

Dr. Jashank Sampat: That is a good question. So, well, I guess Let me, I guess I’ll start out with what what kind of Craig brought to the table which worked out. Craig was very realistic in what we were talking about. I have. talked to probably every transition firm out in the market. And everybody wants your business. Everybody will throw out numbers just to make things sound great. But what was really, really nice with Craig, he was very realistic on, hey, here’s what the market is. Here’s where I think we can take this. He cared for what life looked like for me after the transition, which was very important. And like I said, he was my therapist on late night calls. And I think what really set him apart was he actually cared to the point was even after the deal was done, he called me four months later and said, hey, did you celebrate yet? And I did not. And so he flew to New York, we met up, we did a nice little celebration. So he really showed that he cares for the decision that you make even before and after the deal is done. And what worked out nicely through the process is Craig intro’d me to Hunter. You know, he knew kind of our past and what we had gone through, and he knew Hunter’s background as well as being someone who’s really straightforward, transparent, good to his word. And after having a call, or what really led us to GPS is actually what Hunter said. When he got the numbers and everything, we didn’t get on a first call with a business development person or anybody else. It was Hunter himself, the CEO, and said, you know, he said, hey, I love your numbers. I see where you are. I think you’d be a great fit. And the fact that we’re dealing directly face to face with who we would ultimately be dealing with at the end rather than all these channels is what kind of sparked the conversation with GPS. what kind of took it forward was in our final two years with the group, I was doing no dentistry. We were just managing at the point. And I really wanted the team and the docs to be in good hands. But in order to be able to do that, I think we were 50 plus team members at that point. So we wanted to have a group that we partnered with that had extensive support team with experience to be able to really pass the ball to, especially on a lot of those backend things. And Hunter’s had the setup, he had the channels, he had the support staff ready to go. And it’s been such a smooth transition since from day one when we you know, join the team, there was, hey, this person’s going to help you guys with HR, this person’s going to help you guys with marketing, this person’s going to help you guys with doctor recruiting, with purchasing, things like that. So he was actually very true to his word. And the fact that we’re one year later and I have hunters direct cell phone number We haven’t you know, I got a couple questions or anything. I pick up the phone He picks up within a ring or two and he has been the same person from before the deal to one year later And I think that kind of speaks volumes for GPS and the team he’s running

Bill Neumann: Good. Thanks for pointing that out. So you, the deal closed November-ish of last year. So maybe you’ve got a little bit more than a year’s track record now working with GPS, being a doctor partner. And, and you had, as I don’t think we mentioned this, um, three practice locations, right? You had the Ambler practice and there were two others.

Dr. Jashank Sampat: Correct. Yep.

Bill Neumann: And so, Craig, from your perspective, were there other reasons why you thought GPS might be a good partner for Ambler?

Craig Castelli: It’s a lot of the same reasons, Bill, but I’ll give you our perspective on this. We try to cover the buyer market as closely as possible, which means we’re tracking not just who they are and how they structure their deals, but how their business is going. For those who may not be as familiar with the private equity model. It’s a buy, build, exit model. Private equity firms typically want to hold their companies for, on average, five years. I’d say most are between four and six years. And then they want to sell them for a significant gain. And where a company is in that hold period, as well as the overall lifecycle of the business, definitely tells you something about some financial outcomes, especially when some equity may be involved. But we also pay attention to how the different DSOs behave, what their culture is like, how they negotiate in transactions, how much you can trust them. And coming into this deal, We knew that Ja’Shon could not tolerate another false start. I mean, nobody wants to have one in the first place, but to be so close to closing a deal and have it fall apart was just crushing. And I had zero tolerance for that happening again. We also knew that he would have a lot of interest. It was three very large offices. great doctors, great doctor and staff retention, incredible organic growth and capacity to continue growing organically, even if he didn’t add additional offices for the foreseeable future. So you’re talking about checking a ton of boxes for both private equity firms who may be looking to form a small platform of their own, as well as DSOs, especially those who may want to enter the Philly market for the first time. And we specifically singled out GPS as a great fit and thought in the back of our minds, as long as the number is close, we’re really going to advocate for them as the buyer here. We’re very agnostic and are true fiduciaries for our clients. So at the end of the day, they get to decide who they sell to. And we only push them based on the facts. And Hunter can attest that he’s looked at some of our other deals and not gotten there. But the culture was ripe. The opportunity for the associates to become partners in a meaningful sense was there with GPS. And we knew that there wouldn’t be nonsense. There are other buyers out there. who will offer one thing, and by the time you get to within a couple of weeks of the closing, they’re going to change the deal in a material way. We call that a retrade. They’re not going to treat the seller fairly. They’re going to make promises that they can’t deliver on post-closing. And we do enough diligence on the buyers to know who acts in which ways. And so we could confidently tell Jashank, You know, hey, look, Hudger’s word is gold. As long as you keep doing what you’re supposed to be doing, which is, you know, sticking to the timeline of the transaction and the business continues to perform, you know, reasonably along the lines as presented. You know, this deal is getting done. It’s getting done quickly. It’s getting done at the numbers and on the terms that we’ve agreed to up front. And your life post closing will be as promised. And, you know, as far as I can tell, you know, all of that, all of that happened. Obviously, we had purview in what happened up until the closing. But, you know, the fact that they’re both on here talking about the transaction and I know they still talk to each other regularly. is a testament to the fact that it’s been a good, you know, partnership, you know, 12 plus months in.

Bill Neumann: Yeah, thanks, Craig. Hunter, can you speak to why you saw Jashank’s business as a really good fit for GPS?

Dr. Hunter Smith: Yeah, I mean, firstly, getting a call from from Craig and the CABR team. I mean, that’s already as green of a flag as I can get, you know, and I know they’re going to represent businesses and in this case, dental practices. that are going to be upper echelon that have had success and have future opportunity for success as well. And more importantly, I know that it’s a process that I can get involved with. They’ve said nice things about our ability to keep our word and be transparent. It’s easy to do those things when the data you’re getting is transparent and when you’re able to review the items and know that you’re looking at an accurate picture. uh of the business and of the players involved in the business so you know getting that call makes it a lot easier to to go in with with eyes wide open and then look just hunk had incredible dental practices with with great clinicians in place with leadership in place with really great financial numbers and improving financial numbers. So I don’t think that we went way out on a limb here to make a partnership, but I think it was likely a very competitive process and one that anybody in my position would have been thrilled to have the opportunity to even bid on, much less partner with. So certainly wasn’t a leap of faith from my standpoint. And then meeting with Dushank, hearing the story, we want our doctor partners to be entrepreneurial to want to be able to create culture and philosophy and brand identity at the practice level. He’d proven that he could do that. We want doctors in an organization that want to be part of something bigger. And Deshank is a really gifted speaker and a really gifted coach to be able to articulate what he’s done in his own practices and how he can help others. That was a big boost for our doctor partnership base as well. So every box was checked from those standpoints. So then it just became, Can we put numbers on a paper that makes sense, um, both now and over the next, not only first recap, but beyond, uh, and, and can those numbers match up with what Deshaun’s goals are? Uh, and I think we were able to do that. And like I said, a great relationship today, great partnership. Um, so everything, everything worked out. I sabotaged the first deal so that we could get to this one. Um, they just are finding that out today, but otherwise it’s been great. I know the truth.

Bill Neumann: Uh, from, from the buy side, Hunter, um, what was it like to work with Caber Hill?

Dr. Hunter Smith: Yeah, look, I mean, I think that there’s, there’s this space is very diverse and I think that. in terms of opportunities for representation. But I think Deshaun really nailed what, to me, is the most important part because we have to get off to, transitions are hard, joining two businesses, especially One is sophisticated and with as many people as Joshonks and his team had and that business had into an organization that has another thousand people and other businesses to connect to and vendors that we have to work with. So the ability to connect those businesses together is really challenging. If you get off on the wrong foot with the partnership, with communication or expectations, That can make that already hard process nearly impossible. And I think that you can’t call, and maybe some other circumstances, even half of the doctors and say, hey, have you had a nice experience for the first year together? And really, to the point of your question, that starts pre-deal. And so working with Kaver, as I said, I just know that what I’m getting is going to pass quality earnings. It’s going to get through the financial data, that the expectations with the doctors are going to be set, with the partners are going to be set, that the communication streams are effective, that I’m not having to worry about what, you know, did my message on why I can or can’t do this certain negotiated deal term. get appropriately resonated to the selling partner, or was it, you know, changed up in a way that makes the message easier? Knowing, having that level of transparency, that no BS, you know, Craig recognizing that Deshaun really couldn’t go through that process again, emotionally and mentally. That’s, that’s extremely valuable in every deal, but especially one with complexity, which I think this bill certainly, certainly did have and would have after the fact. So it’s, it’s not as, it’s not like, you know, oh, this, this, this advisor is going to get you the highest vanity index multiple of your EBITDA, which means nothing. It’s if this advisor is going to have your back, that’s going to be honest and upfront about what you can get and what the buyer’s expectations are going to be from you. And then from my standpoint, does the doctor understand what we’re trying to accomplish together and why this particular deal works for them? And they’re not just saying, oh, this cash or close offer is better, so you should choose this one because my commission’s higher on that. And I think that that’s that makes conversations leading into partnership and especially post partnership significantly easier.

Maria Melone: I’m just sharing something here. Just to follow up, but you know, I do think that, you know, the comment I made earlier about the fact that, you know, most of us at Caber Hill have had, worked inside companies, have been responsible for integrating acquisitions into those companies. you know, we bring that experience to the table with us. Not only does that help us on the front end of how we prepare materials to be put in front of investors, we’re really making sure that we’re telling the story, not only of how the business has performed historically, but also, you know, what is this business going to look like in the next one, three and five years? And, you know, and then beyond that, I think we do take a lot of care in making sure that our sellers, that first of all, we understand our sellers’ goals and objectives, and that we are putting them in front of, you know, potential partners that meet those, you know, goals and objectives. And, you know, as much as we are looking to you know, get the best financial outcome for our clients. We are equally aligned with making sure that, you know, their post-closing life is exactly what they’re looking for. And, you know, I think a lot, you know, oftentimes that’s neglected. I think it’s also in today’s marketplace where, you know, we’re seeing equity roles, a much more significant component of transactions, that post-closing world is even more critical to understand and make sure that aligns with, you know, what our clients are looking for.

Bill Neumann: Thanks, Maria. And you talked about post-closing life, so I wanted to ask Jashank, what does one year later feel like for you? What does it look like? Because we’ve got plenty of people in the audience that are really, you know, and then maybe they’re thinking about doing a deal in the next year or two, but not really sure, you know, if they do something, you know, is it going to be what they thought it would be?

Dr. Jashank Sampat: Um, I think it all depends if they use this team with Hunter and Caber Hill, I think they’d be as happy as I am, uh, when you’re out. Um, I, I do have to resonate, uh, you know, what Hunter and Maria said. Craig and the Caber Hill team, when I was looking at the different options and the different offers that were there, the last thing they said was, hey, just take the highest offer. They kind of outlined, they knew exactly where I wanted to be. They knew exactly what my requirements were, what I wanted life to look at or look like afterwards. And they literally mapped it out for me and said three years post-closed with all of these separate offers. this is what life will look like and this is where we think you’ll be. And off of that is what they help kind of coach me or guide me in the decision making process. And the last thing I knew that was on their mind was, hey, what is their portion of the deal going to be? It was more, hey, how happy are you going to be? Let’s pick the right offer that actually is going to make you the happiest and we’ll be happy if that kind of waterfalls in there. And so one year afterwards, I couldn’t be happier. Things have gone as smooth as possible. As I was saying, Hunter has done a really great job continuing to guide the ship and provide the level of support that our team and our doctors have needed. Everything he has said pre-deal, His word has been there and we’re continuing on the same path and same timeline with GPS and our docks partnering in, associating in, and I’m really glad, you know, the Caber Hill team kind of guided us to the right ship. that I can have this conversation a year later, because I do have a lot of colleagues, you know, one year afterwards, they don’t even want to talk dentistry, they don’t want to talk to their support organization or anyone in there. And it’s terrible to see them lead that path. And I’m very happy we are, you know, where we are one year later.

Bill Neumann: That’s great. And from a strategic perspective, Hunter, what’s it like for GPS? And I don’t know if you mentioned this or not, was this the first group that you had in Pennsylvania or did you have other practices in PA?

Dr. Hunter Smith: I think it was our our anchor footprint into that market, especially if not all of Pennsylvania, but definitely in the greater Philly market. And so, and maybe on that point, strategically, the way we partner with offices is we’re not necessarily coming in to reinvent the wheel. You know, I think culture and philosophy and branding starts at the practice level with our partners and not necessarily something that’s passed down from a corporate arm. And so we going into a new geography with an entrepreneurial doctor like Yashong made it a lot simpler to go into a new market. Um, and then strategically, you know what that looks like is I guess it’s like the five star google review thing if you see all five stars and not immediately, you know, bs meter starts going off, um, you know, because not everybody Is going to love it at five out of five stars It’s really you know on on those transition items on those Decision-making points as partners, you know the thing that means the most to me that these guys have said the day is that That that we were able to keep our word and we were able to try to accomplish what we set out to accomplish You’re not always going to get that right and and there it’s not going to be 10 out of 10, you drive 100 miles an hour straight down the road and never have to make a curve. But, you know, how you handle those curves and what speed you’re able to take them at, I think really matters. And so strategically, you know, going into that market with a partner like DeShonk, with communication like what we’ve had, and the goals that we set out for ourselves, I think have led to a really successful outcome. Um, and most of that is because of good communication, good expectations, good goal setting, and then execution around those items.

Bill Neumann: So let’s switch gears here a little bit and talk about, um, What did M&A look like in 2024? So now we’re in 2025, we have a whole year’s perspective to kind of look at things. Craig, why don’t you start things off here. How has it been in the dental space?

Craig Castelli: It’s been an interesting year. M&A from a macro level slowed down in 2024, kind of started to slow in the second half of 23, and that continued through 24. Things started to pick up. At least top of the funnel activity picked up in Q4. But overall, it was a slower year by every metric and the dental industry was not immune to that. There were certainly transactions that occurred and there were some groups that were able to remain. pretty acquisitive, but we also had a number of DSOs. This was really driven by the buy side. A lot of the DSOs slowed down their acquisition activity for one reason or another, and that trickled down and was pretty pervasive across the market. I think your next question will be about next year, and so I won’t get into that too much, only to say that I don’t think that it’s a long-term trend or really concern of mine, but that’s certainly the reflection on this past year.

Bill Neumann: Maybe we’ll start, Marie, off with that question. What are your expectations for 2025?

Maria Melone: You know, I’ll just start with a comment about 2024 as well. I think that another factor that really impacted the M&A space from the sell side was a real shift in deal structure. So we saw a much greater emphasis on equity role over cash at close. And I think for many sellers, that’s a very different calculus when they had maybe been building and thinking of transacting at 80% cash outflows to a 20% equity role. And in the market, we’re maybe being asked for as much as a 50% equity role. So I think that certainly had an impact as well. 2025, I think, is going to be a great year. I think that we’re going to see more buyers back at the table. I think 2024 was a for many groups, you know, a resetting year, a focus on, you know, organic growth and assuring up the, you know, the locations that they already had acquired. And I think, you know, many groups are now, you know, in a better position to restart their acquisition programs. And I, you know, I think because of, some sellers sitting at the table, there will be more opportunity for buyers as well.

Bill Neumann: How about you, Hunter? On the GPS side of things, what are your expectations for 25?

Dr. Hunter Smith: I thought 2024 was great. Um, I think, uh, I, you ever feel validated by something when, uh, turns out you can’t do 80, 20 deals at nine times leverage when interest rates double. So, um, it was, it was nice to see our theory on structure and creating partnerships, um, proven out. And, you know, I think our partners really reap the benefits of that and GPS was able to grow during that year. So I understand that that’s maybe a kind of a sick way of looking at it, but I do think that, um, What it did was show correct partnerships with great doctor partners and great organizations can still be done and be successful in this space and the dentistry is resilient and that as long as there’s sell side looking to have partnership opportunities that the right buy side people will be available to them. And I’m glad to say that we were in 2024 able to do that. 2025, I mean, same thing. I don’t necessarily want to go back to the wild west of 2020 and 2021. Everybody’s just throwing numbers on papers and hoping to see what lands. I think Within our industry and within our space, we need to create lasting equity value, lasting partnerships, lasting organizations that are going to be able to represent group practice scenarios and group dentistry in the correct way. And so I think this time period has been a nice reset point to see who actually knows what they’re doing, who’s doing a good job. Hopefully that continues throughout 2025. It does seem like the greater economy is improving and that some factors that allow us to do more M&A are coming to fruition. But I don’t think that people are doing it correctly necessarily. I had to stop last year either.

Bill Neumann: Maria, why don’t we kick this question off if you’ve got a couple more and then we’ll finish up the podcast. This has been a great discussion so far. What trends have you seen in 24 and maybe do you expect them to continue in 25? Are there overall trends that you’ve seen? You talked a little bit about the equity role and how that’s changed. What else?

Maria Melone: I mean, you know, to be honest, I think that’s one of the biggest changes and I think it’s, you know, it’s driven from several different perspectives. One is just the nature of, you know, the lending environment and the cost of capital going up. Certainly for a group to have to put less cash out at close is, you know, beneficial for them. I think there also has been a greater sort of awareness of the importance of having, you know, doctors with direct alignment with the groups that they’re partnering with. And so, you know, one of the best ways to achieve that is through an equity position, you know, having doctors have skin in the game. I think the other aspect of that, you know, driving that is also having to attract younger doctors and, you know, groups that are earlier on in their stage of development. You know, if you’re looking to grow and you need to start attracting a younger provider base, you know, people that may have 10, 15, even 20 years of, you know, work life left, you know, just getting a 30% of collections is probably not going to be that attractive to them. So, you know, I think we’re going to continue to see creative models, different ways that people are going to enter into partnerships, different ways that people are going to create equity positions for not only sellers, but associates. And Other than that, you know, I guess the other interesting thing I would say is still the specialty trend. You know, we’re, we’ve seen a couple new in particular oral specialty DSOs pop up just in the last year or two. 18 months. And, you know, the multiples in specialty still seem to be quite strong. And so I think that’s an interesting trend, and I’m interested to see, you know, where that ultimately ends up. in terms of, you know, where do those groups go? You know, do they consolidate with each other? Do they get absorbed by a larger DSO? You know, that’s still a big question in my mind.

Bill Neumann: Craig, how about you? Any additional trends?

Craig Castelli: I referenced earlier private equity hold periods and what we have seen in both dental and the private equity industry at large is that hold periods today are considerably higher than their historical averages and definitely higher than PE firms typically want to hold businesses for. And the last time hold periods crept up as high as they are today was in the 2012 to 2014 time frame. What followed that? About eight years of rampant growth in deal volume, in valuation. We just went into this robust bull market for private transactions interrupted only by a pandemic, followed by a very quick rebound. there. So we expect the same because ultimately, you know, DSOs that have been owned for seven, eight, nine years have to recapitalize. and they’ll eventually reach the end of the fund life cycle and the fund will have to liquidate it. Whether it’s at a gain, a break even, or even a loss, they have to return the capital to their shareholders. That’ll pump new liquidity into the market, which will just create another cycle of very active M&A. I think that starts in the first half of this year and I’m excited to see it.

Bill Neumann: Great. So we’ll kind of go through final thoughts here. And Jashank, why don’t we start off with you? Any final thoughts before we say goodbye to everybody?

Dr. Jashank Sampat: I, uh, well, you know, thanks for having us on here. Uh, appreciate that. And, uh, for me, it’s, if anybody’s in a similar boat, uh, that I am Craig and his team really, uh, took care of us, uh, provide us with a real actual, uh, you know, meaningful advice and guidance on where to not only take the business, but where it’s going to lead, you know, myself, my family and our team of docs. So, uh, you’ll be in good hands with, uh, Gabriel.

Bill Neumann: Hunter, final thoughts from you, and then if anybody wants to find out more about GPS, how do they do so?

Dr. Hunter Smith: Yeah, easiest way would be just through our website, gps.dental. I’m also able to be answering email anytime, hsmith at gps.dental. Like I said, I still primarily lead the M&A function of our business. So happy to talk to anybody about their practices and what partnerships may look like for them at any time. Obviously no pressure from our side. Final thoughts, thought this was a really cool concept. So I appreciate you guys getting it together and having it on. I think having buy and sell side teams as well as representation to kind of show a greater look at how a deal comes together and what’s important in there was a really cool concept. So hopefully people found value from this and can see that good partnerships in dentistry do and can exist. And if you are, you know, led to the right direction, that it could really be a positive impact in your career. Something that we’re all excited about for the foreseeable future and industry. Excellent.

Bill Neumann: Thank you, Hunter. Maria, final thoughts from you.

Maria Melone: I would just say for anybody, you know, considering a transaction, even in the next three to five years, we always think it’s better to reach out sooner rather than later. You know, at least get a relationship started with us. And certainly the more time that we have with you, the better able we are to make sure you’re truly prepared to go to market, as well as maximize, you know, any opportunities that you have.

Bill Neumann: Thanks, Maria. Would you mind just shouting out your email address in case people want to reach out to you directly?

Maria Melone: Sure. It’s M-M-E, oh no, that’s my, sorry. It’s maria at caberhill.com.

Bill Neumann: Awesome. And we’ll make sure we drop that in the show notes for people. And Craig, we’ll let you kind of finish things up here. Final thoughts and how do people get in touch with you and find out more about Caber Hill Advisors?

Craig Castelli: Yes, it’s been great. So thanks again, everybody for jumping on here. So caberhill.com is our website. Pretty simple to find. My email is just Craig at caberhill.com. Our cell phone numbers are all on the website as well so that we don’t hide. We’re pretty easy to get a hold of. And we’re open for business. So, you know, if you own a business and you know, even if you think your transaction is five or 10 years into the future, we’re happy to have a conversation because there are fundamental things you can be doing right now. both within your company as well as on the personal side of things to prepare yourself for when the time is right. And a big part of the line of work that we’re in is building relationships, giving away a lot of insights on the front end for free. So don’t be a stranger. Reach out. We’d welcome the conversation.

Bill Neumann: Excellent. Thanks. Thanks, Craig. Thank you, everybody. Great, great panel discussion. Happy New Year, everyone on the panel. Happy New Year to everybody listening and watching. And until next time, this is the Group Dentistry Now Show. Thanks for checking in.